the ‘sublime frivolity’ of the gods

[Theseus]

Karl Reinhardt in a memorable phrase about the Greek gods in Homer’s Iliad talks of them as displaying—in a wonderful oxymoron--‘a sublime frivolity—ein erhabener Unernst”.The gods are a paradox of great beauty and excellence whilst also being light-hearted and spontaneous, not caring about mankind since they do not feel human suffering and on Olympus ‘“no sound of human sorrow mounts to mar/ their sacred everlasting calm” [Tennyson]. What would be the best Greek rendering of this memorable phrase, which I first heard long ago and which still sends shivers down my spine. And, as an inheritor of Athens and Jerusalem—religion and rational philosophy— for I love both, how would today’s Greeks, with their wonderful heritage of both disciplines translate this phrase?
‘Sublimity’, it seems to me, doesn’t have much traction nowadays and there is perhaps too much frivolity. But the Greek book by Longinus ‘On the Sublime’ translates merely to Περί Ύψους—On Height— and begins with the majestic opening of Genesis: Athens AND Jerusalem! (It is a side comment but Longinus is both the name of the author of ‘On the Sublime’ and a different Longinus who was the centurion who pierced Christ’s side to ensure that He was indeed dead.)

 

[cougr]

I'm pressed for time but just to get the ball rolling, my off the cuff attempt at it would be "θεσπέσια επιπολαιότητα".

 

[Theseus]

What would we do without cougr! Thanks yet again.
The idea of transcendence and sublimity is difficult to render into many languages! It can be described and hinted at by our poets. The Romans called it numen. Rudolf Otto in his book ‘The idea of the Holy’ described it as mysterium tremendum ac fascinans: the mystery that makes us shudder and draws us to it’. I liked your attempt to get the ball rolling.

 

[cougr]

Another possibility for "frivolity" in this case would be "ελαφρότητα".

 

[Duke_of_Waltham]

Νομίζω ότι κάνει ωραία αντίθεση η «μεγαλειώδης ελαφράδα»… Εφόσον δεν θέλουμε κάτι πιο αρνητικό (καθώς η ελαφρότητα/επιπολαιότητα ίσως να έχει λίγο πιο έντονο το στοιχείο της κριτικής).

 

[cougr]

Εφόσον δεν θέλουμε κάτι πιο αρνητικό (καθώς η ελαφρότητα/επιπολαιότητα ίσως να έχει λίγο πιο έντονο το στοιχείο της κριτικής).

Εγώ έτσι το αντιλήφθηκα. Ότι έχει δηλαδή μια κάπως αρνητική, επικριτική χροιά.

 

[Duke_of_Waltham]

Ίσως… Πάντως είναι ενδιαφέρουσα έννοια. Βρήκα αυτή την ανάλυση:

Many interactions among the gods in the Iliad have the same kind of comic quality as the seduction of Anchises in the Hymn to Aphrodite. The quarrel between Zeus and Hera in Book 1, for example, and the representation of warfare among the gods in Book 21 are almost burlesque, and illustrate by contrast the serious nature of the conflict between Achilles and Agamemnon and the fighting between the Greeks and the Trojans. In these passages and elsewhere in the poem, the Olympian gods are characterized by what Karl Reinhardt called a "sublime frivolity" (erhabener Unernst), which, as I have said, serves to clarify the seriousness of what human beings do and suffer. The gods in the Iliad are "blessed" (makares) in their freedom from the decline and darkness in which everything human must end. Since they are "unaging and immortal," they risk nothing essential, and the honor and glory they are obsessed with winning or losing is not truly significant. In this respect their existence is light and trivial compared with that of human beings, who seek to make their lives meaningful by fighting for these rewards until they are finally killed. Despite, or because of, their perfection, the gods in the Iliad serve mainly as foils to bring out what one might call the tragedy of the human condition.

 

[Theseus]

Thanks, Νωβελίσσιμε! Also interesting and a relevant citation. The gods of Rome are not the same as the gods of Ancient Greece, despite attempts to identify the two. Reading Virgil is an entirely different experience from reading Homer. ‘Sublimely frivolous’ is not, in my opinion, applicable to them.

​

 

[m_a_a_]

If it wasn't for the matter of register, I would have suggested μακάριο ζαμάν-φου… which I may have just done

 

[Theseus]

Blessed I-don't-give-a-toss! Not literary but fits the bill! Thanks, m_a_a!

 

[cougr]

It may be worth noting that the term "sublime frivolity", as used by Rhinehardt, has also been translated as: a "sublime lack of seriousness". Having now done some rudimentary research into the term, it appears that the Duke was correct (#5). There aren't any obvious indications of any underlying tones of disapproval or negative implications in Rhinehardt's usage of the term.

 

[Theseus]

Thanks again, cougr. I don’t think in my original thread that I meant to criticise the Olympian gods’ frivolity but I did compare theirs with ours. They are immortal: we are mortal. We are flesh and blood: they have supernatural flesh (Plato implies they are spiritual) and ichor flows through their veins. We live on in an ever-changing world: they live in an Olympus, floating in the ουρανός above the earthly one, not actually on the mountain in Thessaly. Hence my quotation from Tennyson in his poem ‘Lucretius’.
Homer in the Odyssey describes the gods’ as a serene and exalted space, untouched by weather or human strife, where the gods convene to discuss mortal affairs, in a polis far above. But in the Iliad particularly pain does touch Zeus deeply, when he tries to save Sarpedon, his son and favourite. But Hera persuades him not to, since all mortals are doomed by the fates to die.
Then Homer writes:-
“The sire of gods and men assented, but he shed a rain of blood upon the earth in honour of his son whom Patroklos was about to kill on the fertile plain of Troy far from his home”. Hardly frivolous in any sense. Or for the matter of it, ‘lacking earnestness’. BTW, I think Rhinehardt is a misspelling. It should be Reinhardt. But that doesn’t affect the point you make!

 

[cougr]

Thanks again, cougr. I don’t think in my original thread that I meant to criticise the Olympian gods’ frivolity...

I never meant to implicate that you did. It's just that in the first instance I thought that Reinhardt was perhaps being critical of the gods (see #6) but I later realized that this wasn't the case - hence my post at #11.

BTW, I think Rhinehardt is a misspelling. It should be Reinhardt

That's the work of my auto-correct. I only picked it up now.

 

[Theseus]

Sorry for the misunderstanding I too get irascible with auto-correct: Theseus, The stud, indeed, still…..

 

[nickel]

Όλως προχείρως και μόνο για να πρωτοτυπήσω και ουχί για να οχλήσω: «υψηλή ασοβαρότητα». Ίσως και «ύψιστη».

 

[Theseus]

I like both of them: after all, Longinus’s work on the sublime was Περί Ύψους. So either alternative using the same word he did. Thanks, Nickel!