Πάτερ Ημών και Κοινή Ελληνική

cosmasad

Member
Could someone tell me how old the language in the "Πατερ ημών ο εν τοις ουρανοίς..." is? I thought it was 19th century but I'm being told it's much older.

Thank you.
 

cosmasad

Member
Maybe I'm not being clear. What I'm wondering about is when was this particular version of the Πατερ Υμων written? It is not ancient greek -- and it is not modern greek. But... what is it?
 

cougr

¥
It is not ancient greek -- and it is not modern greek. But... what is it?
Koine Greek, also known as Hellenistic Greek, common Attic, the Alexandrian dialect, Biblical Greek, Septuagint Greek or New Testament Greek.

See links provided by nickel, above at #2
 

SBE

¥
Maybe I'm not being clear. What I'm wondering about is when was this particular version of the Πατερ Υμων written? It is not ancient greek -- and it is not modern greek. But... what is it?
I suggest you start by learning about the various periods of the greek language, maybe start here.
Or perhaps you may not be aware that the Lord's prayer appears in the Sermon on the Mount, in the Gospel of Matthew, which is part of the New Testament, which was written in Koine, therefore the Lord's prayer is in Koine, in which case Nickel's link is helpful. It will also tell you that there is no "version" of the prayer other than the one you quoted, in mainstream churches who use Greek as their liturgical language. You may find some protestant churches operating in Greece using modern Greek, but the phrase you quoted is not in modern Greek.
Now, the reason you may think that the quoted phrase is in 19th c Greek is because you are probably confusing it with katharevousa. Even then, the similarity would be only in the quoted phrase and not further on in the prayer, as katharevousa was not an exact copy of Koine.
 

cougr

¥
For further reference, below is a comparison between the Koine and Katharevousa versions of the Lord's Prayer (Κυριακή προσευχή). It appears that there is significant similarity between the two versions.

Koine Greek

Πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς,ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου·ἐλθέτω ἡ βασιλεία σου·γενηθήτω τὸ θέλημά σου ὡς ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς·τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον·καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν, ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφίεμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν·καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν, ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ, ὅτι σοῦ ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία καὶ ἡ δύναμις καὶ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας·ἀμήν.

Katharevousa

Πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς·ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου·ἐλθέτω ἡ βασιλεία σου·γενηθήτω τὸ θέλημά σου,ὡς ἐν οὐρανῷ, καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς·τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς εἰς ἡμᾶς σήμερον·καὶ συγχώρησον εἰς ἡμᾶς τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν, καθὼς καὶ ἡμεῖς συγχωροῦμεν εἰς τοὺς ἁμαρτάνοντας εἰς ἡμᾶς·καὶ μή φέρῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν, ἀλλὰ ἐλευθέρωσον ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ. Διότι σοῦ εἶναι ἡ βασιλεία καὶ ἡ δύναμις καὶ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας·ἀμήν.
 
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SBE

¥
In the link you provide Cougr it says that it is still the most common prayer at schools but interestingly, I don't remember it from my school where we used Βασιλευ ουράνιε (head teacher had several priests in the family, so they probably knew what they were talking about, I see online it is recommended as a morning prayer).
And I guess because my grandmother was more old school, she taught me the Lord's prayer which meant I coulldn't contribute at school.
 
In the link you provide Cougr it says that it is still the most common prayer at schools but interestingly, I don't remember it from my school where we used Βασιλευ ουράνιε (head teacher had several priests in the family, so they probably knew what they were talking about, I see online it is recommended as a morning prayer).
And I guess because my grandmother was more old school, she taught me the Lord's prayer which meant I coulldn't contribute at school.
Εμείς το Πάτερ Ημών είχαμε… Και εκείνη που λέγαμε τις εβδομάδες μετά το Πάσχα, την οποία ήξεραν πολύ λιγότερα παιδιά. (Ούτε εγώ βρήκα ποτέ τη θέληση να τη μάθω.)
 

cougr

¥
Και εκείνη που λέγαμε τις εβδομάδες μετά το Πάσχα,
Εννοείς την Προσευχή του Πάσχα; Αυτή που λέει:
Ανάστασιν Χριστού θεασάμενοι,
προσκυνήσωμεν Άγιον, Κύριον, Ιησούν,
τον μόνον αναμάρτητον [...]
 
Εννοείς την Προσευχή του Πάσχα; Αυτή που λέει:
Ανάστασιν Χριστού θεασάμενοι,
προσκυνήσωμεν Άγιον, Κύριον, Ιησούν,
τον μόνον αναμάρτητον [...]
Αυτή πρέπει να ήταν, αν και λογικά ξεκινούσε όπως το έχει εδώ, με το «Χριστὸς ἀνέστη ἐκ νεκρῶν, θανάτῳ θάνατον πατήσας καὶ τοῖς ἐν τοῖς μνήμασι ζωὴν χαρισάμενος». (Πιο καλά θυμάμαι πάντως ότι τελείωνε με «και το μέγα έλεος, αμήν», οπότε τα είχε τα συμπληρώματα αυτά.)

 

SBE

¥
Aναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.

Αυτό το θυμάμαι, τα υπόλοιπα όχι.
 

Zazula

Administrator
Staff member
Aναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.

Αυτό το θυμάμαι, τα υπόλοιπα όχι.
Αυτό είναι το αντίστοιχο που αντικαθιστά το «Δι' ευχών» όταν λέγεται η αναστάσιμη προσευχή.
 

m_a_a_

Active member
Ρίχνοντας μια ματιά στο άρθρο της Wikipedia και στις διάφορες εκδοχές που αντιπαραβάλει, μου προέκυψε η εξής απορία:

Γλωσσικά, τι τύπος είναι εκείνο το αφήκαμεν στο λεγόμενο Standard edition of Greek text (πιο κάτω και στο Codex Vaticanus), και τι τύπος το αφίεμεν στο Patriarchal Edition 1904 (ομοίως και στα Liturgical texts και στη "Διδαχή");

Και συνακόλουθη απορία: ότι εγώ από το σχολείο έχω ακούσει μόνο το αφίεμεν είναι τυχαίο ή το ίδιο ισχύει για όλη την επικράτεια ομήγυρη;
 

nickel

Administrator
Staff member
Το αφήκα (αφήκαμεν) ήταν αόριστος α΄ του αφίημι και, στη συνέχεια, του αφήνω (μαζί με το άφησα). Το αφίεμεν είναι ενεστώτας (του ίδιου ρήματος).
 
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