με το καγέν

I was looking up a phrase which I had come across in my reading, δηλ. στο φτερό to see if it could be used in the sense of ‘at the double’ like μάνι μάνι or τσάκα τσάκα. The phrase seems generally to mean ‘on the fly’ i.e. in a hurry and often without preparation. I looked it up also in slang.gr where there appear this sentence:

Από την γρήγορη και πετυχημένη βολή του κυνηγού προς τα αθώα πουλάκια, καθώς αυτά πετούν για να γλιτώσουν από τον καημένο και ΠΕΙΝΑΣΜΕΝΟ (why capitalised?) κυνηγό με το καγέν. I can understand the sentence apart from the word καγέν. It can hardly mean ‘cayenne pepper! But what does it mean?

Maybe it means Porsche Cayenne? Check this out: https://rennlist.com/forums/cayenne...9435-do-you-use-your-cayenne-for-hunting.html

erenta said:

Maybe it means Porsche Cayenne?

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Most definitely.

Thanks all! BTW:- Why is πεισμένος in capital letters? Any ideas? Is it because ‘hungry’ for a man with a Porsche is satirical. Έτσι νομίζω…

I think so, Theseus. The capitalised letters are most likely used to imply and highlight sarcasm and irony. A person driving a Porsche Cayenne obviously doesn't need to hunt for and kill birds out of necessity or for survival. You can also think of the capitalization as a written eye-roll or an expression of exasperation on the writer's part.

Apparently, there is also an airgun model called Cayenne:

cougr said:

Minor point, although the spelling καγέν isn't uncommon, the standard transliteration for cayenne (whether for the Porsche, peppers etc.) is καγιέν.

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Or maybe we just found a sleek way of distinguishing between the Porsche and the pepper…

cougr said:

I think so, Theseus. The capitalised letters are most likely used to imply and highlight sarcasm and irony. A person driving a Porsche Cayenne obviously doesn't need to hunt for and kill birds out of necessity or for survival. You can also think of the capitalization as a written eye-roll or an expression of exasperation on the writer's part.

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What's more, it can be construed as a scornful attempt at sketching out the "psyche" of the hunter in question, as also suggested in the comment section over at slang.gr : he suffers other deprivations (sexual or what have you) that he vents by killing birds…

Katsik35 said:

Apparently, there is also an airgun model called Cayenne:

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Although this fits the context remarkably well, I seriously doubt that the guys at slang.gr had a specific airgun in mind. For starters, such an opaque and niched meaning would at least call for a link, such as the one you provided, clarifying things for the reader, but more importantly, it wouldn't really fit the overall contemptuousness of the whole entry: if someone's into airguns he's more likely to share a hunter's interests than mock them… Good find nonetheless!

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And by the way, viewer's discretion is advised:

Thanks for all this extra material, m_a_a. It’s really appreciated and helpful.

Όσο βγάει νόημα στα αγγλικά, τόσο βγάζει και στα ελληνικά. Μην το ψάχνουμε.

Gotta in typical advertising manner wanted to give the Porsche Cayenne a personality: spicy, fiery and immediately responsive. In these politically correct days you have to put this into Greek sans sexism or racial stereotype. I would perhaps attribute this to the Italian male persona but perhaps this is a ‘dreaded’ racial stereotype and is best left alone untranslated, as SBE wisely implied but this a challenge to you, cougr. Describe such a person then apply it to a souped-up fast car…..

SBE said:

Όσο βγάει νόημα στα αγγλικά, τόσο βγάζει και στα ελληνικά. Μην το ψάχνουμε.

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Πάντως, για τους λάτρεις αυτοκινήτων υψηλών επιδόσεων, πρόκειται για βασική, καθημερινή ορολογία. Για αυτούς τουλάχιστον, σίγουρα κάτι σημαίνει.

@Θησέα
As mentioned above, all these terms comprise part of high performance car enthusiasts, basic, everyday terminology/ jargon and are typically used without any discriminatory, racial or otherwise unsavoury connotations.

Βασική καθημερινή ορολογία για αυτοκίνητο το "πικάντικο" και το "ζωηρό";

I will enter here a message which I had deleted on the grounds that it may be considered contentious and a bit over the top. It read as follows but after SBE’s characteristically terse and pithy remark perhaps what I wrote previously may be relevant. I wrote this:-

“Point taken, cougr, but in everyday terminology ‘spicy’ is an adjective applied in everyday speech to a certain type of woman. Reddit has a whole article devoted to the term spicy as applied to women [note]. In Britain too we had a group called the ‘spice girls’ with the same ‘sexist’ meanings attached to the word.
I think this is a silly adjective—-to say the least—- to use of women, and Gotta, I’m sure, was well aware of the popular use and metaphorical meaning of it. Maybe ‘spicy’ of women is an adjective used by vacuous men, or certain women who seem keen to apply such an adjective to themselves. Interestingly enough,’proud’ owners of posh ‘high-end cars’ in the UK often refer to their cars as a ‘she’, as do the owners of yachts. But perhaps there a Greek auto site that describes in Greek the Porsche Cayenne in the terms above?
What is far more interesting to me is first to define what it is supposed to imply. ‘Spicy’ is obvious. ‘Spirited’ not so: ζωηρός or φλογερός? Are ‘driving dynamics’ referring to the fact of this car’s easy and immediate response’ to the driver’s whims? Well then notorious cases of some degenerate and (convicted) powerful men spring to mind.
Gotta was a ‘brand naming expert, who may never have driven in any of the vehicles he ‘brand-names’ but he nevertheless was pleased to personify them & apply ambiguous and loaded epithets to describe them and be well paid for it.

As always, cougr, you raise very interesting questions and give useful suggestions as answers. But on a happier note this discussion reminds me of Djokovič’s ‘flair’.
Perhaps in the future we could describe questions of this deliberately vague use of words, or words hard or impossible to translate into Greek like ‘spicy, spirited driving dynamics’ as ‘the Djocovič syndrome.”
Perhaps I am overthinking it and should a moderator feel that this is too much of an unsubstantiated rant, then let that moderator delete it! This is why I deleted it before,

SBE said:

Βασική καθημερινή ορολογία για αυτοκίνητο το "πικάντικο" και το "ζωηρό";

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Στα ελληνικά ίσως όχι αλλά στα αγγλικά μερικοί τις έχουμε ψωμοτύρι. Εννοώ τις λέξεις "spicy" και "spirited", όπως για παράδειγμα στις συμφράσεις παρακάτω.

Spicy:
~performance
~engine
~exhaust
~cam/camshaft
~modifications
~gearbox
~tune-up
~revs
~turbo
και πάει λέγοντας

Spirited:
~driving/drive
~performance
~dynamics
~engine κ.ά.

@Theseus
I welcome your previous post, Theseus (no need to have deleted it or to be deleted), and can understand your viewpoint but I've got a bit of a different take on things - or perhaps a wider perspective - to which I'll come back to at some other point in time.

I'm back.

I'm fully aware of the negativity that's historically been associated with the term "spicy" and am also aware that the various negative stereotypes frequently applied to the music industry, people in advertising and marketing and even to high-performance car enthusiasts (in the latter case that they're macho, vacuous, exclusionary eg. a "boys club" etc.) may give the impression that the use of the term in these circles carries a hidden bias, but the way I view it, the term "spicy" when used in relation to cars, is in the main, simply harmless enthusiast jargon and not coded sexism etc. I consider it strictly shorthand for "performance metrics etc" and can't see any connection to the stereotypical and negative use of "spicy" as applied to women nor do I think it perpetuates these meanings. I think of it being a good example of a linguistic chameleon ie. the word's meaning and connotations shift depending on the community or persons using it, who or what is being addressed, the setting or context and the intent of the speaker/writer. Admittedly, given its historical and social baggage it can be seen as occupying a kind of grey area that often leans toward the negative but I don't think that we can categorically assume that it's always negative, demeaning or sexist. I tend to regard it more as one of the many fun or playful food-based metaphors that have made their way into automotive lingo - eg. collocations such as a buttery gear box, meaty brakes, a crisp performance, juicy torque etc. etc.
I could make a few more points regarding the matter but I have to wind it up here so I'll just finish by saying that in regard to the Spice Girls, it's widely known that their name was self-chosen and that they have proudly embraced it. By all accounts, it's associated more with empowerment and positivity etc. and not objectification etc.

On a final note, regarding the term "spirited" when applied to driving etc. it's one of those terms which, to roughly paraphrase the judge who was once asked to define "porn", I know it when I see it - or experience it - but don't ask me to define it. It's got too many nuances to fully describe - particularly when you're in a hurry. "Ζοωηρός" definitely captures some of its meaning but still falls short as a completely adequate rendering.

cougr said:

"Ζοωηρός"

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Ζωηρός. Now there's a lapsus clavis for you.

Thanks, cougr! I like the phrase 'linguistic chameleon'. As for the spice girls, there is little doubt in my mind that their collective name, (originally 'Touch' but changed to The Spice Girls' because of the fact that another artist had that name) alluded to the nursery rhyme 'what are little boys made of?

“What are little boys made of?
What are little boys made of?
Snips and snails and puppy-dogs' tails,
That's what little boys are made of.

What are little girls made of?
What are little girls made of?
Sugar and spice and all things nice
That's what little girls are made of.

From my early years II was brought up on Latin which is an enemy of imprecision, waffle and vague language. You knew what was a metaphor and the context determined the meaning and nuance of words. I loved Ancient Greek and English too where our models were some of the greatest literatures in the world. But nowadays it seems language as a result of a constant bombardment of adverts, endless films, constant radio ‘discussions’ and entertainment channels has become so degraded that often it means absolutely nothing or, worse, and is the basis for meaningless slogans yelled mindlessly by mobs, many of whose members, when asked, don’t know what the are protesting about. Lenin’s ‘the liquidation of dissident element in the population’ means simply ‘killing those who do not agree with you’. ‘Genocide’ means the deliberate slaughter of a people; Jews in the holocaust and Armenians in what became Turkey. The indiscriminate bombing of the people of Gaza has led to unspeakable horrors, perhaps as a political gambit to keep some Israeli politicians in power. But I am sure that the IDF was not trying to wipe all Arabs but Hamas, whose aims were, and are, the extermination of all Jews. But both parties were fired by a nasty ideology that has lead to these unspeakable horrors.
I try to speak from the widest perspective but I agree entirely with the fact that you know much more about cars than I do and that you have given us a very useful phrase in ‘linguistic phenomenon’.
In fine, I also agree with the sentiment at the bottom of one of our eminent colleagues: ‘It is better to be kind than right’. Ζοωηρός I plead was not entirely a lapsus clavis or digiti but partly a lapsus insomniae. BTW, I am trying to translate into Latin the term ‘a spicy chariot’: odoratus would mean smelling pleasant’ or ‘associated with [sweet] smells’. The cisium was a fast chariot and the nearest adjective would be ‘very fast’: cisium celerrimum. Piperatum is the nearest word but that would mean ‘peppery’ or ‘thievish’. End of rant. Η γλώσσα κόκαλα δεν έχει, αλλά κόκαλα τσακίζει." Thanks for your tolerance.