Comma workshop
- Thread starter pontios
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pontios
Well-known member
That's what I was getting at, Philip - but I used one "whom" too many.
Nickel restated it better.
The context (the way you've explained it) makes sense - but not the way I worded it.
Query 9 - Where do the commas go?
Later that afternoon he tried approaching the shops once more in the hope of chatting to the Russians but the guard warned him to leave once again and he had to obey.
a. Later that afternoon he tried approaching the shops once more in the hope of chatting to the Russians, but the guard warned him to leave once again and he had to obey. (1 comma)
or
b. Later that afternoon, he tried approaching the shops once more in the hope of chatting to the Russians, but the guard warned him to leave once again and he had to obey. (2 commas)
or
c. Later that afternoon, he tried approaching the shops once more, in the hope of chatting to the Russians, but the guard warned him to leave once again and he had to obey. (3 commas)
or
d. Later that afternoon, he tried approaching the shops once more in the hope of chatting to the Russians, but the guard warned him to leave once again, and he had to obey. (comma before the and at the end).
Is there another way again?
What about a semicolon or a dash at the end? - "but the guard warned him to leave once again .."
Are there any subtle differences, sense-wise?
Are all the above versions acceptable/correct and is there more emphasis given in c. (assuming that the commas are correctly placed) that he hopes to speak to the Russians?
Nickel restated it better.
The context (the way you've explained it) makes sense - but not the way I worded it.
Query 9 - Where do the commas go?
Later that afternoon he tried approaching the shops once more in the hope of chatting to the Russians but the guard warned him to leave once again and he had to obey.
a. Later that afternoon he tried approaching the shops once more in the hope of chatting to the Russians, but the guard warned him to leave once again and he had to obey. (1 comma)
or
b. Later that afternoon, he tried approaching the shops once more in the hope of chatting to the Russians, but the guard warned him to leave once again and he had to obey. (2 commas)
or
c. Later that afternoon, he tried approaching the shops once more, in the hope of chatting to the Russians, but the guard warned him to leave once again and he had to obey. (3 commas)
or
d. Later that afternoon, he tried approaching the shops once more in the hope of chatting to the Russians, but the guard warned him to leave once again, and he had to obey. (comma before the and at the end).
Is there another way again?
What about a semicolon or a dash at the end? - "but the guard warned him to leave once again .."
Are there any subtle differences, sense-wise?
Are all the above versions acceptable/correct and is there more emphasis given in c. (assuming that the commas are correctly placed) that he hopes to speak to the Russians?
Hi, this one does not need any commas. So it is up to the writer how many commas he would like to have. I consider the one before "in the hope" superfluous. Allow me to go for one comma and one small change:
Later that afternoon he tried approaching the shops once more in the hope of chatting to the Russians, but again the guard warned him to leave and he had to obey.
Later that afternoon he tried approaching the shops once more in the hope of chatting to the Russians, but again the guard warned him to leave and he had to obey.
Σύμφωνα με τους κανόνες που διδάσκονται σχετικά με τις defining και non-defining clauses, αυτή είναι η μοναδική σωστή λύση με κόμμα. Είναι μή προσδιοριστική το "who...", επομένως χωρίζεται με κόμμα. Το " on which..." λόγω της ύπαρξης πρόθεσης δεν μπορεί να έχει κόμμα. Το "when..." δεν είναι αναφορική αλλά χρονική επομένως, λόγω αντιστροφής και ακολουθίας σε σχέση με την κύρια πρόταση, δεν παίρνει κόμμα και το μόνο λογικό κόμμα μετά είναι ανάμεσα στη Νάπολη και την Ιταλία, όπου υποβόσκει μία δευτερεύουσα ελλειπτική αναφορική ("η οποία ανήκει στην Ιταλία") που με το πέρασμα των χρόνων έχει επικρατήσει ως απλοποιημένη σύνταξη.
Αυτή είναι η γνώση μου μετά από 19 χρόνια διδασκαλίας της Αγγλικής ως L2.
Σίγουρα κόμμα μετά το "afternoon". Θα χρησιμοποιήσω έναν "κανόνα", μία υπεραπλούστευση που κάνω για τους μαθητές μου: ο,τιδήποτε προηγείται του υποκειμένου - με λίγα λόγια κάθε εισαγωγική έκφραση, συνήθως χρονικές- χωρίζεται με κόμμα πριν το υποκείμενο.
Επίσης, παρά τις διχογνωμίες σχετικά με το αν βάζουμε κόμμα πριν από conjunctions, εξαιτίας του κανόνα της Οξφόρδης, θα συμφωνήσω με το κόμμα πριν το "but" καθώς έχουμε μία πρόταση που θεωρείται επί της ουσίας αυτόνομη.
Έχω τις αντιρρησούλες μου.
Εδώ φοβάμαι ότι ξεχνάς τις μη προσδιοριστικές που ξεκινούν με πρόθεση. Άλλωστε, οι προσδιοριστικές μπορούν να πετάξουν εντελώς το αναφορικό, π.χ. The plane we flew on had the coolest seats ever.
Μη προσδιοριστικές:
The house is made up of two floors, on which there is still some of the old decoration and furniture.
And that is cousin Andrew, with whom we hardly get along.
Αυτό λέγεται πράγματι σε μαθητές και το εφαρμόζουν συχνά-πυκνά οι συγγραφείς σχολικών βιβλίων για να μπορούν οι μαθητές να εντοπίσουν γρήγορα το υποκείμενο της πρότασης. Ωστόσο, όχι μόνο δεν είναι ο κανόνας αλλά «κανονικά» είναι και λάθος: το επίρρημα ή η επιρρηματική φράση μπορεί στις περισσότερες περιπτώσεις να ξεχωρίσει από το υποκείμενο, άρα δεν προκύπτει σύγχυση που να επιβάλλει το κόμμα. Με πολλές εξαιρέσεις.
Yesterday we flew to Paris.
On the way I met George outside his house.
On the other hand, most people hardly ever know why they put the commas where they put them.
Πού να τα διδάξεις όμως αυτά στους μαθητές...
Εδώ φοβάμαι ότι ξεχνάς τις μη προσδιοριστικές που ξεκινούν με πρόθεση. Άλλωστε, οι προσδιοριστικές μπορούν να πετάξουν εντελώς το αναφορικό, π.χ. The plane we flew on had the coolest seats ever.
Μη προσδιοριστικές:
The house is made up of two floors, on which there is still some of the old decoration and furniture.
And that is cousin Andrew, with whom we hardly get along.
Αυτό λέγεται πράγματι σε μαθητές και το εφαρμόζουν συχνά-πυκνά οι συγγραφείς σχολικών βιβλίων για να μπορούν οι μαθητές να εντοπίσουν γρήγορα το υποκείμενο της πρότασης. Ωστόσο, όχι μόνο δεν είναι ο κανόνας αλλά «κανονικά» είναι και λάθος: το επίρρημα ή η επιρρηματική φράση μπορεί στις περισσότερες περιπτώσεις να ξεχωρίσει από το υποκείμενο, άρα δεν προκύπτει σύγχυση που να επιβάλλει το κόμμα. Με πολλές εξαιρέσεις.
Yesterday we flew to Paris.
On the way I met George outside his house.
On the other hand, most people hardly ever know why they put the commas where they put them.
Πού να τα διδάξεις όμως αυτά στους μαθητές...
Είμαι metoo, κληρονομικό από τον μπαμπά (μυταράς αυτός, μυτού εγώ ...).
Όσον αφορά τις εισαγωγικές εκφράσεις, θα προσπαθήσω να το παραθέσω με πηγές, όπως μπορώ:
1.
Introductory phrases
Introductory phrases also set the stage for the main action of the sentence, but they are not complete clauses. Phrases don't have both a subject and a verb that are separate from the subject and verb in the main clause of the sentence. Common introductory phrases include prepositional phrases, appositive phrases, participial phrases, infinitive phrases, and absolute phrases.
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/owlprint/607/
2.
Rule 10
Use a comma after phrases of more than three words that begin a sentence. If the phrase has fewer than three words, the comma is optional.
Examples:
To apply for this job, you must have previous experience.
On February 14 many couples give each other candy or flowers.
OR
On February 14, many couples give each other candy or flowers.
http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/commas.asp
3.
http://prntscr.com/1ddgxq (ιτούτο ήτο πουδουφου...)
http://www.american.edu/cas/writing/pdf/upload/7-Rules-for-Comma-Use.pdf
4. με παραθυράκι... όπως και το νούμερο 2
3. Use a Comma After an Introductory Word Group
Use a comma after a phrase or clause that precedes the subject of the sentence:
"When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."
(Franklin Roosevelt)
"If at first you don't succeed, failure may be your style."
(Quentin Crisp)
However, if there's no danger of confusing readers, you may omit the comma after a short introductory phrase:
"At first I thought the challenge was staying awake, so I guzzled venti cappuccinos and 20-ounce Mountain Dews."
http://grammar.about.com/od/punctuationandmechanics/tp/commaguide.htm
5. επίσης παραθυράκι (αρχίζει και κάνει ψυχρούλα εδώ μέσα!)
25. Use a comma after a series of prepositional phrases at the beginning of a sentence. Exception: A short prepositional phrase at the beginning of a sentence need not be followed by a comma unless it is required for clarity.
From his seat in the audience, he could not hear the actors.
Before the latest hit, Star Wars was my favorite movie.
On Sunday he plays tennis. (Comma not used.)
In 1776 the colonies declared their independence. (Comma not used.)
26. Use a comma after introductory infinitive phrases and introductory participial phrases used as modifiers. Infinitive phrases used as subjects need no comma. (An inverted sentence.)
To activate the alarm, pull the handle. (infinite phrase as modifier)
Erupting violently, Mt. St. Helens spewed ash for miles. (participial phrase as mofifier)
To live a good life was her only ambition. (infinitive phrase as subject, i.e., inverted sentence)
http://www.mikalac.com/comp/comma.html
6.
A comma may also set off a single prepositional phrase at the beginning to make the sentence clear. A comma is recommended after any introductory prepositional phrase of more than four words.
Correct: Under the kitchen table the dog cowered.
(Single short, clear phrase. No comma needed.)
Correct: Under the spreading chestnut tree, the village smithy stands.
(Comma optional, but helpful due to length of phrase)
Correct: Under the pile of clothes, we found his wallet.
(Two prepositional phrases, not in a series)
Incorrect: On the sand, of the beach, by the inlet, we relaxed in the sun.
(Do not separate the phrases since they are not in a series.)
Correct: On the sand of the beach by the inlet, we relaxed in the sun.
Correct: Over hill, over dale, we hit the dusty trail.
(The two phrases are in series here. We could say "Over hill and over dale.")
http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000074.htm
Εν ολίγοις, το παραθυράκι είναι απλό, από 4 λέξεις και πάνω υποχρεωτικό το κόμμα. Για εμένα που έχω ένα μικρό συντακτικό κόλλημα είναι απαραίτητο και στις 3,2,1 countdown
"On which..." είναι defining όμως... δίκιο για το ότι η πρόθεση δεν αποτελεί ανασταλτικό
Πολύ ωραία τα παραδείγματά σου. Ο κανόνας για το μήκος της επιρρηματικής φράσης στην αρχή έχει (νομίζω) να κάνει περισσότερο με την προετοιμασία του αναγνώστη. Του λέει: «Προσοχή, ακολουθεί μεγάλη επιρρηματική φράση που τραβάει μέχρι εκεί που βλέπεις το κόμμα. Πάρε ανάσα». Δεν δημιουργείται οπωσδήποτε νοηματική ανάγκη, δεν απαιτείται σώνει και καλά το κόμμα για την άρση παρεξήγησης. Φαίνεται καθαρά εδώ (από τα παραπάνω παραδείγματα):
From his seat in the audience, he could not hear the actors.
Before the latest hit, Star Wars was my favorite movie.
Δεν κινδυνεύεις από τίποτα αν γράψεις:
From his seat in the audience he could not hear the actors.
Αλλά αυτό:
Before the latest hit, Star Wars was my favorite movie.
μπορεί να δημιουργήσει έναν στιγμιαίο δισταγμό αν το γράψεις χωρίς το κόμμα:
Before the latest hit Star Wars was my favorite movie.
για προφανείς λόγους: πέφτουν πολλά ουσιαστικά μαζί.
From his seat in the audience, he could not hear the actors.
Before the latest hit, Star Wars was my favorite movie.
Δεν κινδυνεύεις από τίποτα αν γράψεις:
From his seat in the audience he could not hear the actors.
Αλλά αυτό:
Before the latest hit, Star Wars was my favorite movie.
μπορεί να δημιουργήσει έναν στιγμιαίο δισταγμό αν το γράψεις χωρίς το κόμμα:
Before the latest hit Star Wars was my favorite movie.
για προφανείς λόγους: πέφτουν πολλά ουσιαστικά μαζί.
...
On, commas there's a simple precise and, concise, rule:
On, commas there's a simple precise and, concise, rule:
:devil::inno:
pontios
Well-known member
Interesting discussion.
Query 11
a. John and a few other curious townsfolk approached the area to find out what was going on but were waved away by the soldiers.
b. John and a few other curious townsfolk approached the area to find out what was going on, but they were waved away by the soldiers. (I added "they").
I've placed a comma in version b as I thought the addition of "they" may require it. Is this indeed the case?
(By the way, I feel a. also needs a comma before "but" - even without "they").
Whereas -
John approached but was stopped. ... sounds like it doesn't need any commas - but is it because it's a short sentence (that it sounds okay without one)?
Query 11
a. John and a few other curious townsfolk approached the area to find out what was going on but were waved away by the soldiers.
b. John and a few other curious townsfolk approached the area to find out what was going on, but they were waved away by the soldiers. (I added "they").
I've placed a comma in version b as I thought the addition of "they" may require it. Is this indeed the case?
(By the way, I feel a. also needs a comma before "but" - even without "they").
Whereas -
John approached but was stopped. ... sounds like it doesn't need any commas - but is it because it's a short sentence (that it sounds okay without one)?
Όπως τα λες. (Σε λίγο θα τα λες μόνος σου.)
Δες και τα παραδείγματα του ODE στο but:
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/but?q=but
Τα ίδια, πάνω κάτω, λέμε και για τα κόμματα σε σχέση με το ελληνικό αλλά.
Δες και τα παραδείγματα του ODE στο but:
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/but?q=but
Τα ίδια, πάνω κάτω, λέμε και για τα κόμματα σε σχέση με το ελληνικό αλλά.
pontios
Well-known member
Ευχαριστώ, nickel και daeman για την καθοδήγησή σας (και ευχαριστώ, staval, για τη συμβολή σου στην συζήτηση).
Σχετικά πρόσφατα, καταπιάστηκα με τα κόμματα, προσπαθώντας να καταλάβω τους κανόνες που υπαγορεύουν τη σωστή τους χρήση.
Ή δυσκολία μου αυξάνεται από το γεγονός ότι δημιούργησα μεγάλες προτάσεις (μέσω της μετάφρασης μου), προσπαθώντας να προσδώσω κάποια ροή στην ιστορία, εδώ και εκεί, συνδυάζοντας κάποιες μικρότερες προτάσεις που ήταν (ή μου φαίνονταν τουλάχιστον) κάπως ξεχωριστές - του τύπου που συρράπτονται με ένα "ακόμη", ή "εάν", ή "διότι".
Εξουσιοδοτήθηκα εν λευκώ. :)
I might start another thread at some stage - a sentence workshop.
Σχετικά πρόσφατα, καταπιάστηκα με τα κόμματα, προσπαθώντας να καταλάβω τους κανόνες που υπαγορεύουν τη σωστή τους χρήση.
Ή δυσκολία μου αυξάνεται από το γεγονός ότι δημιούργησα μεγάλες προτάσεις (μέσω της μετάφρασης μου), προσπαθώντας να προσδώσω κάποια ροή στην ιστορία, εδώ και εκεί, συνδυάζοντας κάποιες μικρότερες προτάσεις που ήταν (ή μου φαίνονταν τουλάχιστον) κάπως ξεχωριστές - του τύπου που συρράπτονται με ένα "ακόμη", ή "εάν", ή "διότι".
Εξουσιοδοτήθηκα εν λευκώ. :)
I might start another thread at some stage - a sentence workshop.
pontios
Well-known member
Query 12
I'm finding this one tricky ..
a. "Is this you here in this photo or someone else?"
or let's say -
b. "John, is this you here in this photo or someone else?"
There's a number of ways it could be punctuated "John, is this you here in this photo? ...or someone else?"
or possibly? "Is this you, here in this photo, or someone else?" or "Is this you here, in this photo ...?" or "
Is this you, here, in this photo ...?"
Effectively, there are two questions being asked - can we use one question mark?
I'm finding this one tricky ..
a. "Is this you here in this photo or someone else?"
or let's say -
b. "John, is this you here in this photo or someone else?"
There's a number of ways it could be punctuated "John, is this you here in this photo? ...or someone else?"
or possibly? "Is this you, here in this photo, or someone else?" or "Is this you here, in this photo ...?" or "
Is this you, here, in this photo ...?"
Effectively, there are two questions being asked - can we use one question mark?
Philip
¥
One question mark is no problem. Compare:
Tea or coffee?
Would you like tea or coffee?
To put two question marks would imply a goodish pause after the first alternative. Remember, you are trying to represent speech here, so it would all depend on how you think it was said originally. {Note: the comma after 'remember' in the previous sentence makes the meaning of the first part slightly different - I am not saying "you have forgotten", but "don't forget"].
If you want to suggest that the speaker used a lower intonation for 'here in this photo', then by all means use two commas. It would suggest that the speaker regards this information as incidental.
Tea or coffee?
Would you like tea or coffee?
To put two question marks would imply a goodish pause after the first alternative. Remember, you are trying to represent speech here, so it would all depend on how you think it was said originally. {Note: the comma after 'remember' in the previous sentence makes the meaning of the first part slightly different - I am not saying "you have forgotten", but "don't forget"].
If you want to suggest that the speaker used a lower intonation for 'here in this photo', then by all means use two commas. It would suggest that the speaker regards this information as incidental.
pontios
Well-known member
Query 13a
Are the commas placed correctly?
John got to the quarry nice and early, and was warmly greeted by his friend, the truck driver, who had expected him.
Normally, I wouldn't have placed a comma before "and", as "John" is the same subject/pronoun here - but because there's a preceding "and" in "nice and early", it felt like the next "and" (i.e., the one before "was") needed to be separated by a comma.
I wasn't sure whether "truck driver" is restrictive or non-restrictive - I'm thinking now that it's probably restrictive, i.e., without the commas?
Query 13b
An acquaintance had told him that a truck heading to Florina, which was owned by a mutual friend, was scheduled to leave from a nearby limestone quarry the following morning.
I was in two minds here - whether to place a comma before "which", as it sounds like a restrictive relative clause, but then "Florina" got in the way. Florina could also be owned here by the mutual fiend (however absurd that may sound), so I thought I'd better separate it with a comma. Did I do the right thing?
I could also drop "which was" altogether - ".. Florina ,owned by a mutual friend.."
Are the commas placed correctly?
John got to the quarry nice and early, and was warmly greeted by his friend, the truck driver, who had expected him.
Normally, I wouldn't have placed a comma before "and", as "John" is the same subject/pronoun here - but because there's a preceding "and" in "nice and early", it felt like the next "and" (i.e., the one before "was") needed to be separated by a comma.
I wasn't sure whether "truck driver" is restrictive or non-restrictive - I'm thinking now that it's probably restrictive, i.e., without the commas?
Query 13b
An acquaintance had told him that a truck heading to Florina, which was owned by a mutual friend, was scheduled to leave from a nearby limestone quarry the following morning.
I was in two minds here - whether to place a comma before "which", as it sounds like a restrictive relative clause, but then "Florina" got in the way. Florina could also be owned here by the mutual fiend (however absurd that may sound), so I thought I'd better separate it with a comma. Did I do the right thing?
I could also drop "which was" altogether - ".. Florina ,owned by a mutual friend.."
Hi. I think I agree with the punctuation in 13a and the reasoning behind it. But in 13b I would write:
An acquaintance had told him that a truck owned by a mutual friend and heading to Florina was scheduled to leave from a nearby limestone quarry the following morning.
In any case, I wouldn't want to get trapped in a "what does the mutual friend own?" situation.
An acquaintance had told him that a truck owned by a mutual friend and heading to Florina was scheduled to leave from a nearby limestone quarry the following morning.
In any case, I wouldn't want to get trapped in a "what does the mutual friend own?" situation.
pontios
Well-known member
Thanks, nickel.
Some good pointers.
It makes sense to restate 13b. I'm glad that I've backed myself into the comma corner/snookered myself, as it provided an interesting example.
In 13a .. if we were to deem it a restrictive relative clause (which I think it is)
Would this be correct? ..(I've resisted restating it or using brackets, for the point of the exercise).
John got to the quarry nice and early, and was warmly greeted by his friend the truck driver, who had expected him.
or do we lose the last comma ?
John got to the quarry nice and early, and was warmly greeted by his friend the truck driver who had expected him.
Some good pointers.
It makes sense to restate 13b. I'm glad that I've backed myself into the comma corner/snookered myself, as it provided an interesting example.
In 13a .. if we were to deem it a restrictive relative clause (which I think it is)
Would this be correct? ..(I've resisted restating it or using brackets, for the point of the exercise).
John got to the quarry nice and early, and was warmly greeted by his friend the truck driver, who had expected him.
or do we lose the last comma ?
John got to the quarry nice and early, and was warmly greeted by his friend the truck driver who had expected him.